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i've always had a theory


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#1 brian

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 03:08 AM

that the group A supra's failure to ever place 1st was the reason toyota created the 1jz. basically when toyota attempted the group A race with their 7m powered MKIII supra they were met with failures and losses repeatedly, mostly because they had to run a weight penalty for having a 3 liter motor while nissan (GTR w/rb26) and ford were able to run in the sub 3L class and have lighter cars.

i've always had this theory on the 1jz, that it was a engine toyota was developing for group A to put them in the sub 3L class. the 1jz is seriously overbuilt for what it is, it was a genesis design; something that completely broke their straight-6 mold that was at this point nearly 30 years old. from the block, to the rotating assembly, to the head design, to the EFI system - it was a ground up redesign. why though? why did they put so much energy into a new design, so much overbuilt engineering, so many new parts? my belief is they really wanted to race and win in group A with the supra and this new motor design and started to develop it, but Toyota pulled the plug on it and switched to the corollas in the early 90s.

what was left from this R&D exercise was the Twin Turbo R, the JZX81s, Soarers and a few years later a stroked version for the new MKIV.

just thought i'd bring this up because i'm so sick and tired of other makes enjoying their heritage, celebrating their racing pedigree, and just obsessing over a certain design while us toyota guys with this 1jz are dismissed as it being just another generic motor from a large corporation. it has no history, no struggle, no purpose... just a weaker version of something greater.

i don't subscribe to this. i've had 1jzs for many years now and i feel its toyota's best motor; the power, the sound, the emotion of this motor is staggering and it gets into your blood. the 2jz is simply a stroked version with 500cc more displacement, but some put it in a over-bloated category of excellence that overshadows it's predecessor and i feel that is unwarranted. the 1jz is toyota's finest hour, a moment when toyota only cared about performance, they didn't care about any other factor; fuel economy, weight, emissions, NVH, nothing... they build this motor because they simply wanted Nissan's ass and they got it, they created something that ate the RB for lunch. unfortunately it wasn't in the context of official racing, but to the consumer it was a concorde moment and i feel people need to stop dismissing it because there is something "better" out there...

end rant.

anyone that replies with "cool story, bro" will be delete from the forum. not even joking...

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#2 Jason

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 12:57 PM

why didnt you post this for general consumption? we should have a yearly forum where we get brian and gordo together and make them ramble on about toyota racing heritage for hours in front of a few video cameras. then edit it into a short documentary. if we could incorporate anything about alien technology we could probably submit it to the history channel and pass it all off as factual.
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#3 Mo

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 06:08 PM

This is good, really really really good. This should be posted in every Nissan forum on earth just to show how much they suck.
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#4 Bill

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 10:45 AM

i like this :thumbsup:

i also have to say kanto aw and yamaha are big contributors and nearly deserve more credit for toyota street car heritage, but the real racing heritage, F1, 24H, JGTC, WRC, SuperGT, D1, GTU, was also generated by other specialist firms or teams other than Toyota itself, their real in house TRD would be their only connection with real racing really. i think that's one big difference between Toyota and manufacturers like Ferrari and Porsche that actually live and breathe their racing efforts directly and have done it the same way for generations. Toyota really does have the ability to say "meh, we already dominated WRC.. lets try out 24H of LeMans, that looks fun!" then right after that, drop 24H like a stone in a pond and say "hey lets do F1 instead, that's serious business, we want to show how serious we can be" so when they show up, most purist probably just want to shun them right away.

hate to bring up the new 86, but it's sort of a comparison to today's Toyota:

Honestly, i'm dissapointed in all that futuristic BS concept vehicles, chairs, ecu smartphone cars, all that stuff toyota is always spewing assloads of, it's just stupid and gives consumers the wrong message. I want to see them bang out something serious, actually onto the street, like an ISF that's manual and an LFA that's affordable. the 86 i can only give a C- for effort, i'm starting to think i'd rather have seen the 86 sold only as a subaru in north america, it's like toyota told hiromu naruse to build a homage to the AE86, then he passed away and the designers/engineers just picked up a dusty old book about their previous vehicles designs, picked out just a snapshot of what a stock bland AE86 is like, and just copied that whole feeling. totally disragarding all of the racing and enthusiast heritage of the car.

imagine if porsche didn't make the 911 for like 20 years, then they made a new one that has skinny tires, 150hp engine made by VW and weighed 2800lbs.

yeah, i'd be pissed if i liked old porsches.

and i think Toyota is STUPID to think it can sell the MOST boring cars with barely passable specs while it shows off a new piece of retarded advanced tech like once a month. i swear they produce more concept BS shit then actual car models. they hand us bland shit because they need to turn a healthy profit, so they can spend it on this concept shit? they need to fucking divert those resources NOW!! at least just stop with the retarded concepts and let us have more beef on the new cars and still make the same profit.

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#5 brian

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 11:44 PM

Moved it to a public area so these faggots can chime in...
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#6 Mo

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 12:18 PM

Chime in you fags!
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#7 Guest_DuaxMachine_*

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 12:24 PM

Reading through the Gr-A story just pisses me off..........
I had a chance at one of the magnisium diffs that came out of the factory race cars,
but stopped bidding at around 2k (dollars, not yen).
It ended up going for about 2300.
If I had known that it was possibly the last one I would ever see, I would have chased it longer.

I did end up with several sets of the cams, and they came in durations of 256, 264, 272, and 288, and they were all over 10mm lift (I've had all of them).
I only kept the 264s, and the 288s.
Had the pan, but was unwilling to cut it up to fit the Cressida.
Have the turbo sold on the production Grp-A, but it is easily surpassed by any of the US built CT/Garrett customs.
Good for collectors, but not much else, maybe an MR-2.
The intercoolers were a joke, and probably part of the reason of the sub-600 hp figure on 30 psi boost, that and t
The smallish throttles (65mm) hindered the engine's output.
I have seen them bored to 70mm (just sold one this past summer), but the 65mm thing was just too small.
Remeber, the RB has 6 - 45mm throttles, and a huge intercooler.

Later years, many 7Ms were built by the likes of HKS, Blitz, etc., for other classes in Japan that made much more power than the factory effort.

By the time Toyota threw in their towel, most of the other teams did also, since the Skyline was dominating the class.
And Toyota finally realised that an engine that dated back to the mid '60s needed a replacement.

When they (it wasn't a factory project, but a privateer effort) went to LeMans with the Mk4 Supra, they didn't even run a 6-cylinder,
but rather a 3SG, or more likely the factory race motor that was a look-alike, the 503E, the engine they ran in the US GT-P cars.
Another one that I should have kept.
Race trim, it was tuned to 600-800 hp, but would have the boost turned up for qualifying to the tune of 1100 or so.
(Like 50+ psi boost)

#8 Mo

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 01:55 PM

So, lemme get this straight. What you just said in that lengthy post is a 7M pretty much sucks donkey nuts. I appreciate your honesty, attention to details and brief history. Love IT!
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#9 huckersideways

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 02:40 PM

I always thought the 1J was something special. Something different. That it was built to be THE benchmark of its era, though it never quite happened. It was watered down and put into sports luxo cars made nearly exclusive to Japan, which was a shame. Granted the 1J had a long life, it wasnt a prosperous one. Why Toyota buried the 1J under its fat sibling I dont think I'll ever accept. Granted a stock 1J leaves much to be desired, start finessing power from one, and Brian is right. The engine produces emotion. Driving in a well set up car, sitting behind a 1J, reeling through gears, its a sensation I dont think is replicated by much else.

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#10 Mo

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 04:14 PM

1j with 2j emissions equipment and a leaner tune wouldve made for a great engine for the 91 supra when it recieved it's face lift in the USA.
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#11 rayray

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 07:20 PM

the sound alone is enough to turn heads. there's just something magical about it. it certainly does have that emotional element. not just loud and obnoxious like some big stroke gazillion liter V8, but it sounds pissed off, in a weird melodically pleasing kind of way. thanks yamaha

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#12 Mo

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 07:34 PM

All the -GE, -GTE motors sound pretty sweet. Especially the 6ers. Makes a bimmer look twice. Thank you very much Yamaha.
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#13 bigtoepfer

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 07:38 PM

its one of the top 3 engines as far as sound goes to me. And I like all 3 so much that I can't actually put a number to them.

I'd take a 1J over a 2J any day of the week

I'd love my car a shit load more too if it never came with a fucking M series motor. - Trevor

 

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#14 Mo

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 07:40 PM

Is that why you gave yours away?
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#15 The Chubby Chaser

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 08:08 PM

I was a Nissan guy before and drove a ka and ka turbo, and 280zx turbo. I also tried a v6 mustang and rx8. I drove an x8 with a BHG and an SR5 86 corolla that cracked the head. That kind of put me off Toyota... til I got my X chassis. All I can say is I've ran the shit out of my mostly stock 1J for almost 3 years now and it has NEVER let me down. People can't believe it when I tell them the motor is a stock Toyota unit. Toyota, please bring back your turbo inline sixes.

#16 ropadopa

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 04:51 PM

that the group A supra's failure to ever place 1st was the reason toyota created the 1jz. basically when toyota attempted the group A race with their 7m powered MKIII supra they were met with failures and losses repeatedly, mostly because they had to run a weight penalty for having a 3 liter motor while nissan (GTR w/rb26) and ford were able to run in the sub 3L class and have lighter cars.

i've always had this theory on the 1jz, that it was a engine toyota was developing for group A to put them in the sub 3L class. the 1jz is seriously overbuilt for what it is, it was a genesis design; something that completely broke their straight-6 mold that was at this point nearly 30 years old. from the block, to the rotating assembly, to the head design, to the EFI system - it was a ground up redesign. why though? why did they put so much energy into a new design, so much overbuilt engineering, so many new parts? my belief is they really wanted to race and win in group A with the supra and this new motor design and started to develop it, but Toyota pulled the plug on it and switched to the corollas in the early 90s.

what was left from this R&D exercise was the Twin Turbo R, the JZX81s, Soarers and a few years later a stroked version for the new MKIV.

just thought i'd bring this up because i'm so sick and tired of other makes enjoying their heritage, celebrating their racing pedigree, and just obsessing over a certain design while us toyota guys with this 1jz are dismissed as it being just another generic motor from a large corporation. it has no history, no struggle, no purpose... just a weaker version of something greater.

i don't subscribe to this. i've had 1jzs for many years now and i feel its toyota's best motor; the power, the sound, the emotion of this motor is staggering and it gets into your blood. the 2jz is simply a stroked version with 500cc more displacement, but some put it in a over-bloated category of excellence that overshadows it's predecessor and i feel that is unwarranted. the 1jz is toyota's finest hour, a moment when toyota only cared about performance, they didn't care about any other factor; fuel economy, weight, emissions, NVH, nothing... they build this motor because they simply wanted Nissan's ass and they got it, they created something that ate the RB for lunch. unfortunately it wasn't in the context of official racing, but to the consumer it was a concorde moment and i feel people need to stop dismissing it because there is something "better" out there...

end rant.

anyone that replies with "cool story, bro" will be delete from the forum. not even joking...

http://www.turbosupr...70GA/ma70ga.htm



preach

#17 ropadopa

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 04:59 PM

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#18 Mo

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 09:52 PM

Goddamn dude. Ever heard of a pressure washer?
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#19 ropadopa

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 07:03 AM

pressure washers are for motors you stupid fuck

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and paint guns are for paint

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#20 ropadopa

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 07:15 AM

and here is one more for you youngins

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