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Suspension for road-course/grip. Flame away.


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#1 JimmyHoffa

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 04:34 AM

I'm on the market for new suspension. Everyone will probably tell me to just buy Stances or BC coilovers, and I'm almost on board for that option, but are they any good for road course? I barely drive my car other than evenings, weekends, and a few track days a year (what I actually care about), so I want something that will work well for road-course instead of drifting which I never do. Drifting seems to be the focus of Stance, BC, Megan etc. coilovers.

Gordon is probably the only person with serious experience with chassis setup (even if it's mostly drag racing) but I'm interested in any first-hand experience anyone has with road course suspension, especially on an X7 (fuck my life).

I have acess to the necessary equipment and have the ability to machine parts to make things fit, weld, or generally custom build almost whatever I need. Right now the thing I don't have is a ton of free time. And I don't want to fuck around building an unproven setup that might be trash. Running a business and raising two kids doesn't leave me much car time, so I'm looking for the best suspension with the least custom work possible.

PS. fuck my life.

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#2 Demesio

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 05:24 AM

BC is simple enough, I've done road course and drifting in my car.. as well as daily drive the thing.

 

My brother went with Megans... they are made in the same place, but definitely not made the same. Those could be perfect for someone wanting to lower their car but they suck for actual abuse.

 

Also, X7 rear suspension sucks.



#3 JimmyHoffa

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 06:02 AM

 
Also, X7 rear suspension sucks.


Fully aware... If I'm stupid enough to stick with this platform long term I have plans to do something stupid like a C4 corvette rear subframe/suspension/diff swap with custom everything, but that would take about 6 years with the amount of time I have these days to work on cars.

On the other hand, e30 BMWs used partial swing-arm rear suspension like the x7 and tons of people love them and swear by their handling (for an 80s car).

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#4 LUMBERZACK

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 06:33 AM

I have Fortune Auto 500's. Fortune Auto is immensely focused on Global Time Attack and sponsor many cars in that series. Although the coilover components are manufactured in some third world country, their coilovers are hand assembled, and valved in Virginia. They valve your coilovers based on the custom spring rates you choose and you can upgrade the springs to swift and add swift helper springs to increase droop (great for circuit and autocross racing). Fortune Auto actually shock dynos each coilover and checks hysteresis characteristics and ensures that their dampening adjustment knobs actually make a difference. Their coilovers are amazing compared to the BS that Megan, Stance, and BC pumps out. BC knows their target market and they do a great job marketing and advertising which is why so many fucks use them. I always get backlash from BC fanboys when I call them out, but when I ask, "what other coilovers have you ran?" It's always nothing else.

 

Edit: If you're looking to overhaul suspension geometry, maybe start with the stone age macpherson front end. The front of these cars could use some bracing and a double wishbone type setup.



#5 ChriSOL

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 09:16 AM

glad you asked, i was also wondering whether anyone had gone in this direction. every time i considered it, i remembered that there are probably several better platforms to start with.



My friend that lives in US showed me CraigsList while we search for my Cressida. You find lots of odd things on that site. Lots of fat US girls looking for a free ride from black basketball type American man.


#6 JimmyHoffa

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 12:23 PM

It's the platform I've got, it makes good power, it just handles like trash, not like old muscle car trash, just not well...

 

I just got an email back from Koni's race department. Their opinion on the best thing I could do with mostly off the shelf parts is double adjustable koni race inserts up front, and double adjustable koni sport shocks from an SN95 (94-04) Mustang in the rear. With some tuning I'm sure the setup would handle great, but the dampers alone would cost $1,400.00 USD, and it wouldn't be anywhere near a straight bolt-up affair on either the front or rear. The rest of my front suspension (ground control sleeves, springs and camber plates) would work, but I'd need rear springs, and it would take some work to get things installed and dialed in. Again, fuck my life.


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#7 WhoreMouth_Jr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 01:06 PM

In for the details as well!

I have no idea how you would setup a car for grip. I've always wanted to take my turdbox to a track day and see what it can do.  I realize it will handle like shit as it's specifically set for drifting (-6d camber ~5.3 caster). 

 

It seems like without crazy modification you are really only left with different shocks/springs/ swaybar options.  The ones you mentioned are the easiest to fit to an x7 and offer roughly the same options adjustability.  Just a dampener adjustment more or less. 

 

(Fanboy warning)  I've had the full range, T3, BC/Megan, and Stance.  Put tons of miles/time on all of them.   Stance seem to ride the smoothest by far since you are looking for that cruising comfort.  It's also entirely possible I didn't have the other 2 setups set properly (preload etc.)  BC/megan doesn't offer a "full coilover" rear setup either, it's just like stock a separate spring and shock.  And both BC/Megan only off the 1 spring rate for the rears (can't remember what it is I think maybe 7l or 8k.)  You would have to source replacement springs if you desire a softer or stiffer rear. 

 

As others mentioned I think our weakest point is the trailing arm which camber/toes in pretty decent on compression.  But you already know that. I know Rue is on a non coilover option (shocks and springs) and seems to like it.  I can see if I can get him to chime in but he don't come here much anymore. 

 

I am curious to see what others with actual experience have to say.


 

why do we spend our time and money on shitty cars that cant love us back?

 


#8 Gordo

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 01:49 PM

On the front strut thing, I've been wanting to find a down & out MkIII Supra, to see how much work it would take to put it's front cross member under a Cressida, since both the upper & lower control arms attach to it.

But I think Rue will send a wet team down, if I start ripping the suspension that I just installed out of the car before driving it a little.

 

There are also weld-in Mustang-II kits made to adapt into older street rods. You can find them at Speedway Motors, under their street rod section.

 

But I really don't have a problem in the twisties with struts right now.

Have done a lot of tweaking with it over the years with spring rates, camber, and sway bars.


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#9 ChriSOL

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 03:24 PM

you guys are probably all well versed on suspension basics and youre looking for the cheat codes to get the car dialed in or close to
it where handling is concerned.

i know i am

there was a guy who road raced his x8 in nasa or scca a long time ago. had a site, talked in depth about suspension but he was doing what bryan is talking about using inserts and sleeves iirc

im tired of trash coilovers and original bushings with good enough to clear alignment

My friend that lives in US showed me CraigsList while we search for my Cressida. You find lots of odd things on that site. Lots of fat US girls looking for a free ride from black basketball type American man.


#10 WhoreMouth_Jr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 03:46 PM

Now that the drift fanbois have come and gone, maybe we can pivot to a jzx road racing website!


 

why do we spend our time and money on shitty cars that cant love us back?

 


#11 Gordo

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 04:30 PM

That swing arm rear suspension was used on several Japanese cars, including the Datsun 510.

The fast 510 track guys used stiffer springs on the rear, than the front, to limit the swing arm's bad habits.

Basically reducing their swing to nearly zero.

 

But I have talked several people into just cutting it out, and welding in a whole new rear suspension.

It is major surgery......and you better have a buddy in a sheet metal shop to form new frame rails.

Easier if you go to a full cage to tie things to.


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#12 battleaxe

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 04:47 PM

you can look at it from many angles.  stiff suspension works on paved, flat courses, soft suspension works better on the bumpy courses.  tires, compounds, air pressures, alignment, sway bars, pads/brakes in general, are what effects you the most.  the suspension can be compensated in nearly all other ways.  for the weekend warrior, pick a coilover and id lean on the softer side of things because you can simulate a stiffer suspension with bigger sways and tires.  id focus on a great brake setup and venting to keep things cool.  with the x7 rear, id look into the camber mod, as you can make it yourself and view the suspension through its full travel sweep.  if you have coils with good dampening you can also compensate with softer springs. the 10/8 in my supra is alright, my issue with that car is that i have to disassemble the suspension to adjust the dampening thats on the bottom of the mono tube, so id suggest top adjustment if thats an option with the coils you have in mind.

 

i have stance on the cressida and supra. they work ok in those cars due to their weight, but ive driven and rode in stances in many other cars and they arent great..valved terribly.  plus they have had so many problems over the years with spring bind, shitty bearings, shitty lower bushings...basic stuff that shouldnt wear in under 10k kms.  the tanabes (tanabe springs and kyb dampeners) have been fantastic in the s13 even at 10/8 its a very nice ride.

thing is, you can change a lot in your suspension to suit the tracks, but tires and brakes are the biggest in road racing for problems over the course of the day.

 

 

 

many old brands that catered to "drift" spec was to have minimal bound and rebound with stiff china springs so it was easier to get sliding...except that when you wanted to grip, it couldnt because the dampener was shit and was stiff, or dont move.

 

stance or bc should be fine for the weight of the x7, but like i said, try and get dampener adjustment on top, would make suspension tuning way easier even if its a "worse" design. we arent competing in no 100k a race weekend where we are squeezing every second out of a car.

 

 

****i come from drifting and road race grippy stuff and my drift cars are setup on the grippy side of things for better control...and how i drive i guess



#13 ROBAPHENT

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 07:48 PM

Currently going through this

Camber Mod (modified E30 BMW ones) as raptor racing have nothing in stock for the next 2+ months
bilstien suspension in rear with coilover conversion.
LSD


if i can find a sway bar i will add one, but right now it will just be the stoker.

friends have just said no to the IRS and swapped in S13 rear's and 100% if i did all this again i would go the same route. it will fit well with a X7 and still retains 4 stud.
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#14 Gordo

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 01:59 AM

10/8 springs don't hack it on a road course with a long strait, followed by a slow corner (prime passing point).

Too much nose dive.

Rule of thumb is to have front springs equal to front wheel weight.

If you have 800 lbs on each front wheel, then you need 800 lb/in springs (about 14kg/mm).

 

Even more with slicks & big brakes.

 

How much are your corner weights ?

Only scales will tell....


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#15 Bill

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:14 PM

Look at this cool thread. It's cool.

Chris, that old guy was Ross Foss iirc. His car was mostly stock, he just drove it really well.

I can't help, only thing I can reinforce is balance. If you can at least get it predictable it would obviously be a win.

#16 timtiminy

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 03:48 PM

Just got to see Driftmotion's mx83 pretty damn impressive btw... it's a drift setup but he's using Feal coilovers. Odi Bakchis owns Feal and he has done a huge variety of suspension setups in motorsports from rally to motocross to drifting, and being personally involved in motorsports from a young age he definitely knows whats up. I know he does fully custom valving and spring rates and isn't too pricey. Might want to check them out. 

Personally I bought some cxracing coilovers (Bor Choann manufactured... same manufacture as BC and pretty much the same in most reguards but half the price) going to order longer travel inserts and use bilstein parts to rebuild them, cost of whatever springs I decide to go with and all the internals wont be much more than BC coilovers but I'll have them tuned to however I want and it gives me the hands on experience with figuring out what works and a dive into the black art of damper valving.



#17 Gordo

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 09:39 AM

Guessing you didn't understand the gist of this thread, it's about making an X-chassis grip, not slide....

So fuck driftmotion's car.


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#18 timtiminy

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 02:45 PM

Contrary to popular belief, drift setups actually want rear grip and tend to understeer. Just saying It's all setup and that Feal can probably build a great grip setup for relatively cheap (<$2k). 



#19 JimmyHoffa

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 06:49 PM

I'm leaning pretty hard towards cutting out my rear shock towers and welding in fabricated S13 rear upper strut towers about 1.5-2 inches lower than the stock X7 shock tower. It would let me run straight up S13 rear suspension with no fuckery other than the lower mount bushing diameter, and would fix almost all of the issues I currently have with my trash hack-job rear suspension.

 

Also, this is one of the most informative forum posts I've ever read.  https://rennlist.com...-coilovers.html  Not relating specifically to X chassis, but it's a lot of really good and useful info.


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#20 battleaxe

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:10 PM

thats exactly what i did. shortly after i did what i did, stance made drop in coils for the MKII and flipped the rear so it bolts in, no need for hacking. you havent seen?

 

http://raptorracing....overs-mk2-supra

 

lil hard to see, but these are least have the proper camber plates for the front. i used all s13 stuff.  if you want pictures of what i did, theyre in my thread ... and if theyre not there i can send you them






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